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Posted by: scepo Jun 9 2018, 11:24 AM
This is a rather long article which frankly I am surprised ABC has posted on its news website. It however does confirm some of what I have been saying for a long time. I hope there can be some sensible discussion on this topic.




Secret ex-Muslim network in Australia fear disownment and abuse

By Specialist Reporting Team's Jennine Khalik


The young men and women blowing clouds of grape and mint-flavoured smoke at a Middle Eastern shisha cafe in Sydney could pass for any group of friends.

They are a cluster of ordinary professionals and students, passing hookah pipes to each other, as they sip coffee, banter and glance at their smartphones.

The circumstances under which they know each other are bittersweet. They are members of an underground network of former Muslims across Australia, caught between secularism and Islam. Some fear persecution if their loss of faith is discovered, some fear for their lives.

Melbourne local Aisha* is one of more than 70 members of the network spread across the country.

Aisha was cut off from her family three years ago when things took a dark turn after she removed her hijab.

"I never actually told my parents I was an ex-Muslim because I was scared of their reaction," she said.

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Infographic: Melbourne woman Aisha is an ex-Muslim who wants to remain anonymous to avoid possible backlash and abuse. (ABC News: Matthew Abbott)

"The most that happened was when I took my hijab off, one of my friends put a photo on Facebook and my parents ended up seeing it.

"They were pretty upset and said I was obviously just a whore who would end up dead in the gutters."

She said her parents, whom she described as "moderate, even liberal", turned physically violent and police got involved.

Aisha, in her 20s, was forced to move out of the family home.

"My parents were claiming I was a compulsive liar."

Her identity has been protected because she is still afraid of possible consequences, like most people in this network.

"When you think about it, over a billion people still follow Islam. If it brings them comfort let it bring them comfort. I think the issue is when it starts to infringe on our right to live," Aisha said.

The members we met recounted stories of either being disowned by family, forced into silence, shamed or demonised by community leaders and clerics, and having to pretend they were Muslim to avoid issues.

The abuse can be psychological, verbal, physical, and also financial for those who are dependent.

Staying low-key

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Infographic: Nadia, who is no longer Muslim, says ex-Muslims lead double lives because of fear of disownment and isolation. (ABC News: Matthew Abbott)

For many Australians, it is not unusual to be casually open about their atheism or agnosticism. Thirty per cent of Australians described themselves as having "no religion" in the 2016 census.

But it is different for many who have been raised Muslim.

In the last census by the Australian Bureau of Statistics, ex-Muslims in the secret group still embedded in their communities chose Islam as their religion because answering the census was a household activity.

Group members who spoke exclusively to the ABC said they led double lives and were afraid of "coming out". Many maintain a Muslim exterior at home, at work, in their communities, and at mosques.

Nadia*, another network member based in Melbourne wore a niqab — the face veil — when she was practising.

She runs an anonymous blog called Nullifidian, where she writes about her experiences being home schooled and raised in a strict Muslim household.

Nadia, in her 20s and also ostracised from family, covers her hair and most of her face in online videos in order to remain disguised and anonymous.

A woman's face covered with a kuffiyeh.

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Photo: Nadia runs an anonymous blog talking about ex-Muslim issues and her personal experiences.


She told the ABC Australian ex-Muslims had a simple wish.

"Ex-Muslims just want to live their life how they need to without fearing disownment, isolation, imprisonment or death," she said.

In one blog post, she explained: "I choose to remain anonymous online because although I live in a western country, I have endured so much abuse and threats from the Muslim community where I live.

"I also choose to remain anonymous because I have previously been doxxed by Muslims who went as far as to try and get me fired by contacting my workplace."

Losing their religion

There is a week left until the end of Ramadan, the Islamic month of fasting. Since mid-May, Muslims have been abstaining from food and water from sunrise to sunset.

Aisha said she was feeling nostalgic.

"I miss Ramadan heaps," she said.


"Ramadan always came easy for me. I loved fasting, the food, the sense of doing something for a higher purpose. For me, [it] was a time of joy because my family all came together."

A crescent moon in a purple sky

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Infographic: Muslims across the world observe the month of Ramadan by fasting from food and water from sunrise to sunset. (Pixabay: birrellwalsh)


Only a few years ago, Aisha would have been fasting and praying. She would have left the house wearing her hijab, a long dress over a pair of jeans, and sneakers. She had been an extremely devout Muslim most of her life.

"I left Islam because I disagreed with things in the Koran [Islamic holy book] and I couldn't comprehend the idea of disagreeing with things in the Koran and still believing in Islam.

"We're told the Koran is the word of God, not a word has been changed since its existence, which means every single thing in the Koran has to be true.

"If you don't believe in one sentence of the Koran, how can you believe in the religion?"

'We were just kids on the internet, we were not activists'

The Australian network is part of a global ex-Muslim network that started online roughly seven years ago on Reddit, a social news aggregator.

Imtiaz Shams is a vocal British ex-Muslim, who moderates the online Reddit community /r/exmuslims, which is one of thousands of subgroups.

He said he has watched the page grow from several hundred subscribers to more than 30,000 currently.

Imtiaz was a crucial part of establishing the network in Australia.

"If you talk about ex-Muslims, you have to talk about the internet," he said.

"When I left Islam, I thought I was the only one in the world.

"For … years, I spent my time building ex-Muslim communities that are like Fight Club style, you know, you have to know someone to get in across the world with my friends.

"We were just kids on the internet, we were not activists.

Question on Reddit

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Infographic: An example of questions and discussions on the /r/exmuslim Reddit page. (Source: Reddit)

"When you go on Reddit, every day you come across those stories [and you think], 'Oh my god, I thought I was the only one'."

Group members stay in touch on Whatsapp and Facebook, and meet up in real life. The process of joining the network is rigorous and there are strict verification methods the ABC cannot divulge.

In 2015, Imtiaz established the UK-based group Faith to Faithless, which is a not-for-profit group assisting all ex-religious people, including Mormons and Orthodox Jews.

"There are many, many cases where there have been failings with these social services when it came to people like us," he said.

"And these failings can lead to mental health trauma, being put back into an abusive situations, groups, communities, even cults."

Ex-Muslims told they are taking things 'out of context'

Former Muslims told the ABC they had been accused of being mentally ill, being hurt and lost, of not understanding Islam properly, taking scripture out of context, or just wanting to have sex and drink alcohol.

Some have also been accused of never having practiced true Islam and conflating bad experiences with Muslims with the religion itself.

The Arabic term for apostates is murtad, which is used as a slur. Ex-Muslims are also referred to as munafiqun, which translates to hypocrites, and are accused of trying to undermine the Muslim cause and causing unrest.

"One myth I have come across quite often is that ex-Muslims are weak-minded individuals [who] have been corrupted by western ideas and propaganda," Nadia said.

"This sort of thinking is wrong because it says that ex-Muslims cannot think for themselves, that they are lacking in the ability to reason and think logically."


Ali Kadri, the vice-president of the Islamic Council of Queensland, said "most ex-Muslims I have heard from leave Islam because of some issues they have had with Muslim community or their families".

"Unfortunately, a lot of social ills are justified by Muslims in the name of Islam. That is because of ignorance of Islamic teachings and those ex-Muslims who are victims of it blame Islam and all Muslim community for what they may have faced.

"This in itself is because of ignorance of the faith and proper teaching of Islam."

In reality, ex-Muslims explained that the moments in which they could feel themselves moving away from Islam were agonised over and were not taken lightly.

That made dealing with comments that they, "never knew anything about Islam" or were not taught properly more offensive.

Many said it was knowing Islam so well that allowed them to look at it critically.

And they argued that regardless of their reasoning, they should be legally and socially able to opt out of a religion and to be safe from judgement and abuse.

Imtiaz said there were many accusations that ex-Muslims were merely chasing worldly pleasures.

"If you wanted to do that [have sex, drink alcohol], why wouldn't you remain Muslim?" he said.

"A lot of Muslims can just get away with that. In fact it's quite easy if you live that [particular] double life.

"It's harder to be an ex-Muslim because that's a choice you've made, that's like a theological position you've taken."

Where does Islam stand on apostates?

In a Koranic verse, it says there is "no compulsion in religion". In another, it states apostasy is punishable by death and there are several mentions of hellfire as punishment for disbelievers in the afterlife.

There are several hadith — sayings of the Prophet Mohammad — that are broadly agreed to be "authentic" and "correct" by Sunni Muslim scholars that also state leaving Islam is a sin punishable by death.
Infographic: In one verse the Koran states there is no compulsion in religion. (Quran.com)

In 23 Muslim-majority countries, apostasy is a crime. In 13 of those countries, apostates get the death penalty, however in some of those countries, it is not enforced by the state.

While there is some protection given to freedom of religion in the Australian constitution, ex-Muslims still choose to be careful because the price to pay for leaving the faith can be high.

And the community they now fear, they used to call their own.

Verse in the Quran

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Infographic: There are verses in the Kuran and Hadith that ex-Muslims point to as condoning murder of apostates. (Quran.com)

Sydney scholar Sheikh Ahmed Abdo said: "You could easily pick and choose verses from the Koran and shape whatever narrative you want … if they're not taken in a holistic manner."

He said apostasy carried a capital punishment in classical Islamic legal manuals, though added: "The punishment for apostasy is usually included in sections dealing with rebellion and political warfare."

"People are free to choose to embrace Islam or leave Islam, just like they're free to make choices in how they live their lives."

He added: "No-one should be calling to kill an apostate in lands where Islamic law is not applied."

Echoing this was Ali Kadri, the vice-president of the Islamic Council of Queensland, who said he put the questions the ABC asked to Islamic scholars.

"As Muslims, we abide by Australian laws and in Australia apostasy is not a crime," he said.

"[The] Koran is highly contextual. Only the extremists — Muslims and non-Muslims — use such verses out of context to further their agendas."

He said the verse was, "contextual to a time of war and turbulence".


"No mainstream Muslim scholar in Australia has ever advocated for such punishments," he said.

"Every faith considers leaving of that faith to be a sin and it is not illegal to believe so."

Even if there was scholarly contention about ex-Muslims being punished for leaving the faith under specific circumstances, they said language about apostates, disbelievers and women informs those perspectives.

Melbourne local, Fatima*, who is Muslim to her community but a non-believer in private, said: "People call us selfish, Muslim-hating, ignorant.

"They really don't have any idea who we are.

"This leads us to be demonised. All we want is to just live our lives, without this religion."

Aisha recalled reading verses she disagreed with.

"I remember reading the Koran a few times over and it never quite sat right with me, how men are allowed to beat their wives," she said.

"No matter how you interpret it, whether it's [to hit your wife with] something no bigger than a tooth pick or something meant to embarrass your wife and not hit her.

"She's an adult. She shouldn't be hit … she shouldn't be made to feel embarrassed.

"There's no interpretation of that verse in the Koran that sits comfortably with me.

"The fact a woman's word is worth half a man's [in a court of law] … I mean that's in the Koran itself.

"It just unravelled, really, really, quickly. It's like I picked a thread and as soon as that thread was picked, it kept unravelling."

The Australian National Imams Council and Grand Mufti's office did not respond to interview requests. The Board of Imams Victoria declined to comment.

The United Muslim Association and the Centre for Islamic Thought and Education did not respond to questions.

'I still remember the first time going out with bare legs'

On the topic of sex and alcohol, Aisha said: "I didn't move out of home or leave Islam to do those things.

"When I was religious, I never felt like I missed out when I was Muslim or jealous of not being allowed to drink.

"I still remember the first time going out with bare legs," Aisha said, recalling when she wore a skirt with tights in public.

"My friends had to drag me along because my tights ripped and they kept saying, 'No-one is going to look at your legs, it's fine'.

"I don't dress anything close to what I used to."

Nadia said the accusations flung at ex-Muslims were a kneejerk response.

A woman sitting on a large tree trunk on the edge of a riverbank.

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Infographic: Nadia said she believes when people raise questions or criticise Islam, many followers are taken aback and "shaken to their core". (ABC News: Matthew Abbott)

Some of the indictments levelled against her include being "obsessed" with Islam. Muslim critics online have asked why ex-Muslims still associate with their Muslim past.

"Nobody wants to believe the things that they have been taught their whole lives may be wrong," Nadia said.

"Muslims have been taught from birth that their way of life is the rightly guided one and anyone who is not on the straight path is wrong and evil.

"So when someone comes along and questions the beliefs and thinking that many Muslims have known their whole life, it shakes them to the core and they believe it is their God-commanded duty to fight back.

"Most Muslims will attempt to ridicule and mock ex-Muslims for leaving Islam, calling them liars and hypocrites. However, in some cases overseas, Muslims will imprison, torture and even kill ex-Muslims."

Facebook screenshot

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Infographic: American Muslim convert Asadullah Ali-Andalusi, who ran YouTube channel DawahFilms, calls ex-Muslims "cheerleaders for the West". (Source: Facebook)

Punishment and death is either state-sanctioned or carried out by vigilantes. In 2015, American-Bangladeshi blogger Avijit Roy was hacked to death at a book fair in Bangladesh.

Roy was the creator of an online community called Mukto-Mona for South Asian atheists, humanists and freethinkers.

Ultimately, Australia's secularism has created a buffer of safety for ex-Muslims.

Sadia*, a Tanzanian born woman living in Australia, said it was easier to believe and live how one wanted, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, in Australia.

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Infographic: Sadia, from Tanzania, said she could be her authentic self in Australia. (ABC News: Matthew Abbott)

"[It's] easier being an ex-Muslim in Australia compared to other countries I've lived in, like Malaysia and Tanzania," she said.

"Australia is not as influenced by religion, unlike the other countries."

Regardless of her new life in Australia, she acknowledges she will always carry her Islamic heritage with her.

"Growing up, everything was centred around Islam [so] I do feel culturally Muslim."

'We don't want to…ostracise people'

The vice-president of the Islamic Council of Victoria, Adel Salman, said: "What we don't want to do is ostracise people.

"I don't want anyone to feel that they are afraid — as Muslims we have enough of that with Islamophobia and anti-Muslim bigotry.

"As a community, our response [to people who leave] should be, 'Why? Let's talk about it. What experience have you had that led you down this path?'

"t is actually a big deal when someone leaves Islam. It is highly unusual so there's going to be a reaction.

"Muslims hold Islam as the very centre of their being, an essential part of their identity, so when ex-Muslims say, 'Look, I'm no longer [Muslim]', and they start criticising Islam, it's offensive.

"It carries extra offence when it's from someone who used to be Muslim."

He said it, "comes as a surprise" because that "bond" can feel broken.

'Cultural' Muslims, atheists and free-thinkers

Despite attempts to categorise ex-Muslims as heretics who have no place in Muslim communities, Sydney member Shaima said she considered herself a cultural Muslim.

"A lot of us can't shake the fact that a part of us is Muslim," she said.

"Whether it's our name, whether it's our faces, whether it's our mother, whether it's our father, that's all part of us and that's all part of our identity.


"The move to accepting Muslims and, in particular, Middle Eastern Muslims in the Australian landscape can only serve as a benefit to ex-Muslims.

"The more we're accepted, the more humanisation of Muslims there is … the more people will realise, we're not all the same, not everybody's the same.

"Going to these meet-ups is really an experience that I can't really compare to anything. You do kind of feel like you have a community."

Mr Kadri said if somebody leaves Islam, "They are no longer part of a Muslim community".

"Islam is not a cultural group but a religious one. This should not mean they should be ridiculed, threatened or persecuted," he said.

"But if someone decides to leave Islam or, as matter of fact, any religion, they should not complain if they are not considered as part of that faith community."

He said people of other or no faiths were still welcome to celebrate festivals and participate in cultural events.

Back in Sydney, Mohammad* said he was "out" to his immediate family and close friends.

"I would rather not be out to the wider Muslim community because I am worried about the impact it can have on my family, in terms of reputation, safety, and also future financial prospects because I work with a lot of Muslims," he said.

"Many of the views ex-Muslims hold towards Islam, the Koran and Mohammed could be very offensive or insulting to a Muslim person. It can definitely be frustrating to talk and act in a way that is 'acceptable' to Muslims because it doesn't feel very authentic."

Mohammad is trying to fast in the month of Ramadan because he does not want to upset his family.

Ex-Muslims do not want to be 'weaponised'

Australian ex-Muslims also worry about speaking out because they do not want to fuel anti-Muslim and anti-immigration rhetoric.

Ex-Muslims are politically diverse, and many do feel Muslim communities in the West are demonised but that it should not stop people from criticising Islam.


Mohammad said it seemed like the Right were, "the only side of politics willing to critically discuss Islam and its issues".

"Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for such discussion to devolve into bigoted rants about Muslims and their intentions in Australia," he said.

"As an ex-Muslim, I welcome critical discussion about Islam, but I view generalised statements against Muslims as an attack on my Muslim family and friends.

"There are clearly some issues in Islam and in the Muslim community but I believe scapegoating does nothing but cause more division and unrest."

Aisha said: "Right-wing people use [ex-Muslims] to justify their hate of Islam, in a way, and just be racist.

"I left Islam because I didn't believe in certain aspects of it and Islam is a religion based on everything being true."

The number of ex-Muslims likely to keep growing

The Australian group has no formal presence like its US and British counterparts — Ex-Muslims of North America (EXMNA) or Council of Ex-Muslims in Britain (CEMB).

It continues to remain low-key, but is slowly growing.

In the United States, 23 per cent of Americans raised as Muslims no longer identify with the faith according to the Pew Research Centre.
GIF of woman on her phone
Infographic: The network formed online and has expanded to real life friendships and connections.

Nadia, who is in touch with ex-Muslims all over the world, said she was, "shocked at how many people had gone through similar experiences as me despite us being countries apart".

"If you look at countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, ex-Muslims are believed to be in the hundreds of thousands," she said.

"I believe that there are so many more ex-Muslims in Australia than just the few that are part of the Australian group."

The community might be small, but it is significant to its members and allows them to live part of their life authentically.

Those people sitting around smoking shisha are also providing places to stay and connecting new members to official support services.

What started as "just kids on the internet" has become a cultural lifeline for members waiting for a time when they can lose their faith without losing everything else.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-09/double-lives:-the-secret-ex-muslim-network-in-australia/9811340


Add your thoughts and opinions.

Posted by: Charles Jun 9 2018, 01:21 PM
An interesting and thought provoking article.

The majority of Muslims who arrive in Australia are prepared to accept a more liberal and tolerant lifestyle than they experienced in their homeland. Unfortunately some who arrive on our shores carry the same strict beliefs that Islamic extremists are renowned for. It is this latter group that causes problems. Their preachings are often quite violent in their threats and they maintain control by fear over many fellow Muslims.

Islam is far more intolerant of non-believers than are most other religions. The fact that ex-Muslims live in some sort of fear is an indictment of both Islam and those non-Islamic progressives who regard any criticism of Islam as "racist", "Islamaphobic" and any other trendy term they use to abuse people who disagree with them.

Posted by: lee Jun 9 2018, 02:22 PM
QUOTE
"No mainstream Muslim scholar in Australia has ever advocated for such punishments," he said.


As in most cases it is the vocal minority.

Posted by: Bear Jun 9 2018, 08:08 PM
This is the great thing about living in Australia people have the freedom to express themselves, their choice to leave Islam would not be tolerated in Islamic countries. However, they may still face some backlash from hardcore Muslims.

"The most that happened was when I took my hijab off, one of my friends put a photo on Facebook and my parents ended up seeing it.

"They were pretty upset and said I was obviously just a whore who would end up dead in the gutters."

She said her parents, whom she described as "moderate, even liberal", turned physically violent and police got involved.

--------------------------------------

Punishment and death is either state-sanctioned or carried out by vigilantes. In 2015, American-Bangladeshi blogger Avijit Roy was hacked to death at a book fair in Bangladesh.

Roy was the creator of an online community called Mukto-Mona for South Asian atheists, humanists and freethinkers.


No wonder more are choosing to become 'ex-Muslims'

This disgusting story returned to the headlines this week.

Ashfield Gang Rapists’ victims call for deportation after attacker released from prison.

A WOMAN who was repeatedly raped by a gang of brothers when she was 14 wants her attackers to be deported.

TEGAN Wagner was just 14 when she was violently raped by a gang of brothers in 2002.

More than 16 years later, she and another victim of the Pakistani-born rapists have started a campaign to have them deported.

In a new petition on change.org, Ms Wagner, 30, described how the attackers approached her after her friends drove her to a house party in Sydney’s western suburbs all those years ago. She was just a teenager and had never been kissed before or drunk alcohol.

“I was subjected to the most horrifying experience a woman can endure, gang-raped over and over again by four Pakistani brothers, scared they would stab me to death if I did not submit,” she wrote in the plea to Immigration Minister Peter Dutton to deport the convicted men to Pakistan.

The renewed focus on the attackers — known as the Ashfield Gang Rapists — comes as one of the brothers, known as MMK, who was 16 at the time of the attacks, was released on ­parole from prison yesterday.

In April 2004 he was sentenced to a maximum of 22 years for nine counts of gang rape.

“He arrived in Australia from Pakistan in 2000 and was raping teenage girls within two years but because he was given citizenship before he was caught, our laws mean he gets to stay here,” Ms Wagner wrote.

“I do not want this man and his brothers to live in our beautiful country. They do not deserve it. The law needs to change.

“How can these men commit such terrible acts and be allowed to stay if they had only lived in Australia for two years? Their only contributions here are as rapists and living off the taxpayer in jail for their awful crimes against me and others who suffer to this day.”

The notorious group was responsible for a series of violent sexual attacks on at least six girls in the Ashfield area over a six-month period in 2002.

The mother of another victim — identified only as Y. I — also addressed Mr Dutton in the petition saying her daughter “still lives with the emotional devastation” of the attack.

“She has tried to hurt herself on numerous occasions and even tried to kill herself,” she wrote. “These men destroyed her life and because of it, have destroyed mine. They stole my girl from me.”

Mr Dutton said legislation proposed to parliament last year to strengthen citizenship require­ments had been blocked in the Senate by Labor and the Greens.

“If I could kick them out tomorrow, I would. They’re horrible individuals,” Mr Dutton told the Seven Network.

“I’ve cancelled the visas of 3500 people who have committed crimes, including 44 people who have committed rape or sexual offences. If I could kick them out of the country tomorrow, I wouldn’t hesitate.”


https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/ashfield-gang-rapists-victims-call-for-deportation-after-attacker-released-from-prison/news-story/a77e84b7b785e09378b04e35dd325122

Dutton has his hands tied by the Greens and Labor - such crimes as this should allow citizenship to be revoked, our government needs to keep Islamic extremism right away from its citizens.


Posted by: scepo Jun 10 2018, 12:11 PM
Her identity has been protected because she is still afraid of possible consequences, like most people in this network.

The members we met recounted stories of either being disowned by family, forced into silence, shamed or demonised by community leaders and clerics, and having to pretend they were Muslim to avoid issues.

In the last census by the Australian Bureau of Statistics, ex-Muslims in the secret group still embedded in their communities chose Islam as their religion because answering the census was a household activity.

Group members who spoke exclusively to the ABC said they led double lives and were afraid of "coming out". Many maintain a Muslim exterior at home, at work, in their communities, and at mosques.


Nadia, in her 20s and also ostracised from family, covers her hair and most of her face in online videos in order to remain disguised and anonymous.
In one blog post, she explained: "I choose to remain anonymous online because although I live in a western country, I have endured so much abuse and threats from the Muslim community where I live.

"I left Islam because I disagreed with things in the Koran [Islamic holy book] and I couldn't comprehend the idea of disagreeing with things in the Koran and still believing in Islam.
"We're told the Koran is the word of God, not a word has been changed since its existence, which means every single thing in the Koran has to be true.
"If you don't believe in one sentence of the Koran, how can you believe in the religion?"


Ali Kadri, the vice-president of the Islamic Council of Queensland, said "most ex-Muslims I have heard from leave Islam because of some issues they have had with Muslim community or their families".
"Unfortunately, a lot of social ills are justified by Muslims in the name of Islam. That is because of ignorance of Islamic teachings and those ex-Muslims who are victims of it blame Islam and all Muslim community for what they may have faced.
"This in itself is because of ignorance of the faith and proper teaching of Islam."
In reality, ex-Muslims explained that the moments in which they could feel themselves moving away from Islam were agonised over and were not taken lightly.
That made dealing with comments that they, "never knew anything about Islam" or were not taught properly more offensive.
Many said it was knowing Islam so well that allowed them to look at it critically.


Where does Islam stand on apostates?

In a Koranic verse, it says there is "no compulsion in religion". In another, it states apostasy is punishable by death and there are several mentions of hellfire as punishment for disbelievers in the afterlife.
There are several hadith — sayings of the Prophet Mohammad — that are broadly agreed to be "authentic" and "correct" by Sunni Muslim scholars that also state leaving Islam is a sin punishable by death.



In 23 Muslim-majority countries, apostasy is a crime. In 13 of those countries, apostates get the death penalty, however in some of those countries, it is not enforced by the state.
While there is some protection given to freedom of religion in the Australian constitution, ex-Muslims still choose to be careful because the price to pay for leaving the faith can be high.
And the community they now fear, they used to call their own.



And this so called religion is supposed to be no different or worse than any other, especially religions who worship the God of Abraham.

The "religion" is hammered into them from birth, and the penalties for leaving are so great that there will never be more than a few who will actually leave the fold.

As long as Islam exists there will be jihadists.

Posted by: Bill Jun 10 2018, 01:51 PM
Well......that went well scepo. http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/biggrin.gif http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/lbill.gif

Posted by: Phillip J. Jun 10 2018, 03:16 PM
Thanks for that, scepo.
It sure explains the "tolerance" of these people! I find it hard to believe that they won't budge 1millimetre with their outlook on life! Uncanny, really. It's not human to be that way!They have NO leeway, NO tolerance (even though they lay claim to the religion of peace and tolerance!)! I believe that they lie to try and get their way! In this day and age, if someone leaves a Christian church, do we want to behead them? Do we feel the need to chop them up with an axe? http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/smiley_don_t_know.gif

Posted by: scepo Jun 11 2018, 09:04 AM
QUOTE (Bill @ Jun 10 2018, 01:51 PM)
Well......that went well scepo.  http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/biggrin.gif  http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/lbill.gif



In what way would that be Bill? http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/smiley_don_t_know.gif

Posted by: Charles Jun 11 2018, 09:15 AM
QUOTE (Bill @ Jun 10 2018, 01:51 PM)
Well......that went well scepo.  http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/biggrin.gif  http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/lbill.gif


Bill, is this your idea of discussing a topic? Scepo posts an article and invites thoughts and opinions and that is all you can contribute.

Posted by: Bear Jun 11 2018, 02:22 PM
Would Bill prefer that these intelligent young ex- Muslims returned to Islam and joined an Islamic terrorist organisation?

What 'went well' is that these you people made an intelligent choice, I know of few who left Islam and none of them have regretted it!

Leaving any religion, including Islam, is not a crime in Australia - I applaud the courage of these young people, and welcome them to 'freedom', a freedom that so many take for granted, a freedom which so many gave their lives for.

The so-called parents were 'moderate Muslims' yet they turned physically violent against their own daughter because she wanted out of Islam.

I wish Aisha all the best.


Aisha was cut off from her family three years ago when things took a dark turn after she removed her hijab.

"I never actually told my parents I was an ex-Muslim because I was scared of their reaction," she said.


"The most that happened was when I took my hijab off, one of my friends put a photo on Facebook and my parents ended up seeing it.

"They were pretty upset and said I was obviously just a whore who would end up dead in the gutters."

She said her parents, whom she described as "moderate, even liberal", turned physically violent and police got involved.




Posted by: Bill Jun 11 2018, 04:23 PM
QUOTE (Charles @ Jun 11 2018, 09:15 AM)
QUOTE (Bill @ Jun 10 2018, 01:51 PM)
Well......that went well scepo.  http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/biggrin.gif  http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/lbill.gif


Bill, is this your idea of discussing a topic? Scepo posts an article and invites thoughts and opinions and that is all you can contribute.

Hi Charles

The responses to scepos posting were predictable from the start. It was designed to promote the usual round of Muslim bashing that occurs regularly on FDNC. Indeed there are some who would be of the opinion that there is very little else of any consequence that is discussed here. http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/biggrin.gif

scepo even coaxed the Bear out of hibernation. http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/biggrin.gif

A wise man once said:

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.

OK - it was Flin, but Flin would concede that the quote is attributable to a number of people including the progressive social activist, Eleanor Roosevelt, Henry Thomas Buckle, an English historian and goes as far back as Socrates.

I'm assuming that everyone here identifies with the "Great Minds" model and have taken the time to actually read the entire article.

So......What are the issues raised here ?

The issues raised by the young women interviewed are not confined to Islam, but are endemic right across the broad spectrum of Patriarchal Religions, (be that Islam Christianity, the Jews, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. etc. where the role of women in society is defined as being confined to 'child bearing' and to serve the inrtere3sts of men. (My dearly departed old Mum, the eternal militant feminist, would have been especially proud of that last paragraph. http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/biggrin.gif )

The same scenarios are being played out by Catholics in Ireland, Muslim women in Saudi Arabia, women of colour in the U.S., Jewish women in Israel, Rohingha women in Myanmar. Women everywhere in fact, are rejecting the religions that deny them the same rights as men.

This story is no different. It's a feminist story, not a religious story, and the support these women need will not come from the Anti Islam brigade, but from the 'sisterhood'...….because the stories cross all religious boundaries.

You would all be familiar with the phrase that forms part of marriage ceremonies, "Who giveth this woman ?"....and a man steps forward and says "I do"......implying that a man is giving a woman to another man. It may have been appropriate 3,000 years ago, but young women today are rejecting the idea that they are someone's possession to be given to someone else.

A little personal story, if I may beg your indulgence. http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/lbill.gif .

When my step daughter was getting married, (late 90s), her mother and the bride to be asked me if I would 'give her away'. They were both shocked when I refused because she was not mine to give. I proposed a compromise where her mother and I would jointly answer the question "Who giveth this woman ?"

At the appropriate time, when the question was asked, Mum and I stepped forward, hand in hand, looked at each other, and then answered "We do."

A completely different scenario, and both Mum and Step-daughter said it was the most memorable part of the ceremony.

We can continue down the path of Muslim bashing for the sake of Muslim bashing if you like, or we can be the "Smart Minds" we would like to be and discuss the issues raised.

Maybe I can put this into perspective with an analogy that you can understand.

The next time you are going out with your better half, go to her wardrobe, pull out a dress and tell her to wear it. Good Luck with that. http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/biggrin.gif

You'll be eating with the dog until you work it out. http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/lbill.gif

Posted by: Charles Jun 11 2018, 05:01 PM
Thanks Bill. Your response is both appreciated and predictable.

You say, "it's a feminist story, not a religious story," and go on to describe how women are second class citizens in many cultures.

That's a very clever strategy to disguise the fact that the women in this story are living in fear. Not a fear of being ostracised because they have rejected their religion, but a fear for their very lives because of the punishments prescribed by Islam and the extremist fundamentalists.

Your charming anecdote about 'giving away" the bride is a fair reflection on an antiquated tradition. However, it is just an additional smokescreen to cover the real message conveyed by the article.

Answer this Bill, "Is stating that some Islamic extremists call for the execution of those who leave their religion 'Muslim bashing'?"

Posted by: Phillip J. Jun 11 2018, 05:26 PM
Hi there, Bill.
scepo's post was actually informative, and, to me, reinforced the stories that we've all heard about certain elements of this "peaceful, tolerant" religion.
Didn't you think that it was all correct and factual? As I said, we shouldn't be really surprised at it all.
You refer to Muslim bashing (verbal, of course) but, don't you think that all this is because of their attitude to non-Muslims? Wanting to behead infidels, threatening all who are against Islam, radicalising people that may not have really thought that way before! Try walking through the streets of Lakemba, NSW and get told to get out, because, and I quote :- THIS IS ISLAM! How arrogant IS that? When did they become the owners of a Sydney suburb? You can say "bashing" but the point here is, they hate us, but want our country, they hate us, but want, and receive, wonderful Centrelink handouts. These are just simple facts! Can they say...assimilation? (Or even spell it?) http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/smiley_don_t_know.gif

Posted by: Bear Jun 11 2018, 07:05 PM
"scepo even coaxed the Bear out of hibernation." http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/biggrin.gif

The Bear has been very busy Bill, not much sleep due to health issues.

"A wise man once said:"

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.

Well Bill, I have noticed that most of the topics that you post on discuss 'people' - so I guess you fit the 'small mind' part of the quote that you have used?

I don't believe that you have a 'small mind' - however, you need to open your mind as you have missed the point here, yet again. Ask yourself why these young people have left Islam, and in some cases lost their families because of this choice - it would have been very difficult.


She said her parents, whom she described as "moderate, even liberal", turned physically violent and police got involved.

I can not defend people who behave like this Bill. http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/Smiley_winknod.gif

"This story is no different. It's a feminist story, not a religious story,"

Read the article Bill, it is not a 'feminist story' re: Avijit Roy and Mohammad - ex-Muslims are both male and female.

Feminism and Islam do not mix Bill, you should realise this by now.
http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/rolleyes.gif

Back in Sydney, Mohammad* said he was "out" to his immediate family and close friends.

user posted image
A file photo of slain blogger Avijit Roy and his wife Rafida Ahmed Banna.

Victim was founder of popular blog against Islamist radicals.


And, it is a 'religious story' Bill.....

Mr Kadri said if somebody leaves Islam, "They are no longer part of a Muslim community".

"That's a very clever strategy to disguise the fact that the women in this story are living in fear. Not a fear of being ostracised because they have rejected their religion, but a fear for their very lives because of the punishments prescribed by Islam and the extremist fundamentalists.

Your charming anecdote about 'giving away" the bride is a fair reflection on an antiquated tradition. However, it is just an additional smokescreen to cover the real message conveyed by the article."

I agree Charles, a good analyst of Bill's troublesome post.

I also agree with your summary Phillip, I see no chance of assimilation from those you have described.
http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/smiley_don_t_know.gif

Posted by: Michael.W Jun 11 2018, 09:26 PM
This is the reason I despise all forms of religion. All religions and faiths and followers are forced to believe what they are educated on, as if its the only sole right in life and if you don't follow it, consequences follow.

I have no issues with people who wish to believe in religion or faith, just don't ram it down other people throats and especially on children.

The problem now is the political systems in many countries including Australia and all the states a territories has the same down syndrome. Universities are using the exactly the same mythology.

For many years and centuries religion was bashed into many families homes and was control from the churches to household, now we have politicians doing the exact same thing, trying to run people homes from the parliament houses as if their god given right to so, brain washing people is the ultimate goal, except most people in parliament come from law backgrounds and think they are above the people.

This is where the rebellion and the revolt will start to take place. we are seeing it very heavily in European countries and in South Africa. We as Australia will not be spared and we are seeing the same systemic racism moving into this country.

Posted by: Flin Jun 12 2018, 08:01 AM
I have had a gutful of islam and all its facets, dominating the gullible media during the past 30 years. .
We can talk about it until the cows come home but nothing happens because we have the Canberra mob who are all drinking out of the same punch bowl that needs to be flushed.

Our government and our apathy as a nation has enabled these people to do what is natural for them.

What has happened to our society is not their fault; it is ours.
http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/smiley_don_t_know.gif http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/mad.gif

Posted by: charka Jun 12 2018, 09:00 AM
Funny if radicals are a minority why are they not disowned ,look at the enclaves A person being charged for thinking or having a opinion not by musloms, because he might have an intent to vilify musloms this is the goverment acting on behalf of bendigo mosque I am many others are sick of the whole traitorous lot politician i mean The who place is run by minorities

Posted by: Phillip J. Jun 12 2018, 11:49 AM
I totally agree with Flin, about "talking 'til the cows come home.." and the fact that our wonderful government doesn't do s#%^t about the ever-increasing problem! Now look at what's happening out here. Muslims practically getting away with murder, and in some cases, actually getting away with it!
The main point here is, no matter what we all say, absolutely nothing changes for the better!
The government keeps on keeping on, and proceeds to COMPLETELY IGNORE the people, and even THIS post is doing nothing! Why am I even writing this? We have no voice, no say, and we are nothing in our elected government's eyes. Except for ripping us off with sneaky taxes, they really don't need us at all, except for way we supply funds for them to GIVE to other countries!
It's almost based on the Basil Fawlty principle :- "I'm sick of all these people here, they keep wanting service, and I'm trying to run a hotel!" (Or words to that effect!)


PS I don't think that the cows will ever come home!

Posted by: scepo Jun 12 2018, 01:49 PM
QUOTE
The responses to scepos posting were predictable from the start. It was designed to promote the usual round of Muslim bashing that occurs regularly on FDNC. Indeed there are some who would be of the opinion that there is very little else of any consequence that is discussed here.



That's fanciful Bill. I am not a Muslim basher. However I do call Islam out for exactly what it is. You frequently tell us plebs to research. I have asked you a number of times to do your research on Islam, then prove me wrong. You have not done so, you take the easy option (the progressive option) and put derogatory labels on those with a different view.



QUOTE
The issues raised by the young women interviewed are not confined to Islam, but are endemic right across the broad spectrum of Patriarchal Religions, (be that Islam Christianity, the Jews, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. etc.



Name me another religion (excluding fringe cults) that threatens those who leave the faith with death and intimidation not only of them but of their families as well.


QUOTE
The same scenarios are being played out by Catholics in Ireland, Muslim women in Saudi Arabia, women of colour in the U.S., Jewish women in Israel, Rohingha women in Myanmar. Women everywhere in fact, are rejecting the religions that deny them the same rights as men.

This story is no different. It's a feminist story, not a religious story, and the support these women need will not come from the Anti Islam brigade, but from the 'sisterhood'...….because the stories cross all religious boundaries.




Wrong Bill, this story is as much about men as it is about women. See the opening paragraph of the story quoted below.


QUOTE
The young men and women blowing clouds of grape and mint-flavoured smoke at a Middle Eastern shisha cafe in Sydney could pass for any group of friends.

Posted by: charka Jun 12 2018, 02:50 PM
Freedom of choice you leave we kill yep gotcha peaceful cult Why can not people get it they hate us Bill take your wife daughter granddaughter through lakembla I betthey would get a cultural Epiphany Give a call then

Posted by: Bill Jun 13 2018, 05:08 PM
Another successful social experiment. Thank you all for your participation. Cheers and TC. http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/lbill.gif

Posted by: lee Jun 13 2018, 05:12 PM
QUOTE
Another successful social experiment.


Successful? You successfully failed to comprehend the meeting attendees. http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/blink.gif

Posted by: Charles Jun 13 2018, 06:34 PM
"Another successful social experiment."

experiment - noun - a scientific procedure undertaken to make a discovery, test a hypothesis, or demonstrate a known fact.

What precisely did your "experiment" reveal Bill. Scepo posts an ABC article and invites comment. Your reaction to subsequent comments is two-fold. Firstly you respond with a glib "Well ...... that went well scepo" before accusing others of "Muslim bashing" over their comments. You go on to, incorrectly, interpret the article as being about feminism. The latter was subsequently corrected by others and you dropped that line of argument.

So, what did you discover, what hypothesis did you test and how did you demonstrate a known fact? ... and let's not confuser fact with opinion!

I enjoy open and frank debate on any topic but your throw away lines smack of sarcasm and a reticence to engage in intelligent conversation.


Posted by: Bear Jun 13 2018, 08:15 PM
"I have had a gutful of islam and all its facets, dominating the gullible media during the past 30 years. ."

Many have had a gutful Flin, much of the media is run by brainwashing socialists, we could bury our heads in the sand, but our children and their children will be left with what our generation created, even if we disagreed with what our consecutive governments have done it still happened in our time - so should we just turn our backs?
http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/smiley_don_t_know.gif

"Another successful social experiment."

The only thing that I see as 'successful' Bill is that young Muslims prefer 'Western' culture and wish to 'exit' Islam. http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/wink.gif

Now that is a success! Better than breeding a generation of Islamic terrorists

Cheers Bill TC maaate.....
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