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 Australiai and Electric Cars, Costs
Phillip J.
 Posted: Jul 5 2018, 08:26 AM
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Kryptonite


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I was of the understanding that our oil is sold overseas at the best Saudi price, and then it returns to us at THEIR current price! That must be why our #%^*#% government shut down our refineries. To help the local economy!? http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/smiley_don_t_know.gif I must look into this betrayal and try and make sense of it all.
But, when you scrape all the bull#%^*, it simply comes down to pure greed, and nothing else.
On a connected note, who remembers the documentary, "The death of the Electric Car."? Unbelievable, even if it's only half true! Amazing...... http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/mad.gif

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Bear
 Posted: Jul 5 2018, 07:15 PM
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"Lithium batteries r almost 100% recyclable"

100 %?

Current levels of lithium collection in the EU are very low. In the case of batteries, this amounts
to an estimated 5% of the lithium-ion batteries put on the European market. Most of the current
lithium is either dumped in landfill or incinerated, contributing to Europe’s dependency on
lithium supply.

Certain analysts believe that demand for lithium is likely to rise dramatically, due to the manufacturing and marketing of new electronic devices such as mobile phones and laptops.
Demand has already risen sharply: lithium use in rechargeable batteries increased from 0% of the market share in 1991 to 80% in 2007. The European Commission has stated that the tonnage of lithium used in portable batteries could increase ten-fold between 2010 and 2020.

Another key factor will be the use of lithium in large electric vehicle batteries. Large, lightweight lithium-ion batteries for new electric vehicles are set to be launched by over a dozen automobile manufacturers, including Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi and Volkswagen by the end of 2013. Toyota, Mitsubishi and others have expressed concerns that consumer demand may overtake supply by 2020.


http://www.foeeurope.org/sites/default/files/publications/13_factsheet-lithium-gb.pdf

There is still a lot of work needed before we will convert to electric vehicles, as for renewables I see a much better future in nuclear power when the wind stops blowing and the sun goes down the clean burning nuclear power station keeps on pumping out power, 75% of France's power comes from nuclear power stations - new generation Thorium power stations are being built in India, China, Sth Korea, and Indonesia - China plans to double its nuclear capacity by 2020.

"Both solar and Wind need large amounts of CO2 emitting concrete"

That is what I found to Lee.


Next Generation Nuclear Power

Dr Graham Phillips
In a conventional reactor, the fuel comes in the form of little cylinders, about that big. Now, they have no protective coating. But this reactor, however, has two layers of protection. One, the fuel pellets are housed inside spheres like this - spheres of graphite. There's thousands of them in there. In fact, we've got a simulation of them here. They're so tiny, you can barely see them. And for a second layer of protection, each one of those has a protective coating as well. So if there were an accident, it's very unlikely the fuel could escape into the environment.

NARRATION
Those spheres are simulated here by coloured balls. They're testing how they'll flow slowly but continuously through the reactor's reaction vessel. And made out of tough graphite, they're supposedly meltdown-proof.

Prof Per Peterson
Once we go to reactor fuels that essentially are impossible to melt, then we've got reactors which have an even higher level of intrinsic safety.

NARRATION
Already, a pebble reactor is operating in China. But the Berkeley design will step up the safety yet another notch, by using a new coolant. In a nuclear reactor, the coolant is the fluid that flows over and absorbs the heat from the hot radioactive fuel. The electricity's then generated from this heat. In this Chinese reactor, the coolant fluid is helium gas. In standard reactors, it's just water. But Berkeley's is very different.

Dr Graham Phillips
This reactor doesn't use water to flow through the fuel elements and extract the heat - it uses melted salt. Now not table salt, sodium chloride, but the related substances lithium and beryllium fluoride. Heat these guys to about 450 degrees Celsius and they turn into a clear liquid.

Mike Laufer
One of the big advantages of the salt is that it's very effective in moving heat around, but it's at low pressure.

NARRATION
Low pressure means a less accident-prone reactor. Today's generation IIIs run at a staggering 70 times atmospheric pressure.

Prof Per Peterson
If we switch to liquid coolants, like these fluoride salts that we're using, then we can build much more compact, high power density systems that operate at atmospheric pressure, and that gives us a system which is intrinsically safe, because there's no source of pressure to disperse radioactive material.



Prof Barry Brook
It provides what I call a 'plug and play' alternative to coal. You can take out a coal-fired power station, you can put in a nuclear power station and you have something that has replaced coal.


http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3608402.htm

This post has been edited by Bear: Jul 5 2018, 08:11 PM

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charka
 Posted: Jul 5 2018, 08:45 PM
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Who can afford the cars Pollies?
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scepo
 Posted: Jul 5 2018, 09:55 PM
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I am all for sustainable, renewable energy provided it is viable, but:

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/smiley_don_t_know.gif

I have no idea, and at present no time to research.

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Pool
 Posted: Jul 6 2018, 07:10 AM
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QUOTE (scepo @ Jul 5 2018, 09:55 PM)
I am all for sustainable, renewable energy provided it is viable, but:

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.  http://fairdinkumnewschat.b1.jcink.com/uploads/fairdinkumnewschat/smiley_don_t_know.gif

I have no idea, and at present no time to research.


The only reason it sounds to good to be true is that Petrol (and diesel) combustion motors r not very efficient (about 20-25 %)
Where r electric motor is close enough to 100% its not funny. The loss of power charging a Litium battery is about 15%, making a BEV (battery electric vehical) about 85% efficient.
So it takes about 3-4 times the amount of petrol to go the same distance as a vehicle on Batteries.

That's why its cheeper to have solar and big batteries than petrol, because a internal combustion motor just isn't very good http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/wink.gif

If u really want to go forward and backward at the same time u could also build a lot more coal plants (at about 3 billion a gwh) to power the cars, u would have the ongoing price of coal as well.
But it would stop Australia needing to import all the fuel and keep the money in Aus.
QUOTE (charka @ Jul 5 2018, 08:45 PM)
Who can afford the cars Pollies?

The amount saved not buying fuel could be used as incentives to buy the EV's. http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/wink.gif
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Pool
 Posted: Jul 6 2018, 07:26 AM
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QUOTE (Bear @ Jul 5 2018, 07:15 PM)
"Lithium batteries r almost 100% recyclable"

100 %?

Current levels of lithium collection in the EU are very low. In the case of batteries, this amounts
to an estimated 5% of the lithium-ion batteries put on the European market. Most of the current
lithium is either dumped in landfill or incinerated, contributing to Europe’s dependency on
lithium supply.

Certain analysts believe that demand for lithium is likely to rise dramatically, due to the manufacturing and marketing of new electronic devices such as mobile phones and laptops.
Demand has already risen sharply: lithium use in rechargeable batteries increased from 0% of the market share in 1991 to 80% in 2007. The European Commission has stated that the tonnage of lithium used in portable batteries could increase ten-fold between 2010 and 2020.

Another key factor will be the use of lithium in large electric vehicle batteries. Large, lightweight lithium-ion batteries for new electric vehicles are set to be launched by over a dozen automobile manufacturers, including Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi and Volkswagen by the end of 2013. Toyota, Mitsubishi and others have expressed concerns that consumer demand may overtake supply by 2020.


http://www.foeeurope.org/sites/default/files/publications/13_factsheet-lithium-gb.pdf

There is still a lot of work needed before we will convert to electric vehicles, as for renewables I see a much better future in nuclear power when the wind stops blowing and the sun goes down the clean burning nuclear power station keeps on pumping out power, 75% of France's power comes from nuclear power stations - new generation Thorium power stations are being built in India, China, Sth Korea, and Indonesia - China plans to double its nuclear capacity by 2020.

"Both solar and Wind need large amounts of CO2 emitting concrete"

That is what I found to Lee.


Next Generation Nuclear Power

Dr Graham Phillips
In a conventional reactor, the fuel comes in the form of little cylinders, about that big. Now, they have no protective coating. But this reactor, however, has two layers of protection. One, the fuel pellets are housed inside spheres like this - spheres of graphite. There's thousands of them in there. In fact, we've got a simulation of them here. They're so tiny, you can barely see them. And for a second layer of protection, each one of those has a protective coating as well. So if there were an accident, it's very unlikely the fuel could escape into the environment.

NARRATION
Those spheres are simulated here by coloured balls. They're testing how they'll flow slowly but continuously through the reactor's reaction vessel. And made out of tough graphite, they're supposedly meltdown-proof.

Prof Per Peterson
Once we go to reactor fuels that essentially are impossible to melt, then we've got reactors which have an even higher level of intrinsic safety.

NARRATION
Already, a pebble reactor is operating in China. But the Berkeley design will step up the safety yet another notch, by using a new coolant. In a nuclear reactor, the coolant is the fluid that flows over and absorbs the heat from the hot radioactive fuel. The electricity's then generated from this heat. In this Chinese reactor, the coolant fluid is helium gas. In standard reactors, it's just water. But Berkeley's is very different.

Dr Graham Phillips
This reactor doesn't use water to flow through the fuel elements and extract the heat - it uses melted salt. Now not table salt, sodium chloride, but the related substances lithium and beryllium fluoride. Heat these guys to about 450 degrees Celsius and they turn into a clear liquid.

Mike Laufer
One of the big advantages of the salt is that it's very effective in moving heat around, but it's at low pressure.

NARRATION
Low pressure means a less accident-prone reactor. Today's generation IIIs run at a staggering 70 times atmospheric pressure.

Prof Per Peterson
If we switch to liquid coolants, like these fluoride salts that we're using, then we can build much more compact, high power density systems that operate at atmospheric pressure, and that gives us a system which is intrinsically safe, because there's no source of pressure to disperse radioactive material.



Prof Barry Brook
It provides what I call a 'plug and play' alternative to coal. You can take out a coal-fired power station, you can put in a nuclear power station and you have something that has replaced coal.


http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3608402.htm

ok a little lithium battery from a phone probably gets thrown in the dump, but if u read the link on Teslas old batteries , it shows how they recycle them.
Also The batteries used in the SA tesla plant r huge, so easier to recycle.

Teslas (I use them because they make the most batteries) factory in Nevada has a lithium mine less that a hour from it and looks like it will be supplying the factory in the next few years.
Lithium isn't the problem, cobalt is the rare metal used and will be the bottle neck, but they r changing the chemistry more and more to use less.

Yes Generation 4 Nuclear power plants seam the way to go, but r still at least 20-30 years away before they even start getting built.

I like the ones that can use existing nuclear waste ,so cleans up our existing problems :)

Even if we approved a gen4 nuke now it probably wouldn't be built for 30-40 years
With all new tech I'm not sure if id trust when the engineers say we got it right this time , id think id want to wait awhile and see how one went somewhere else for awhile http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/wink.gif http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/wink.gif
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Flin
 Posted: Jul 6 2018, 07:34 AM
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Pretty hard to trust anyone to "get it right' when there is money to be had.

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lee
 Posted: Jul 6 2018, 03:21 PM
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Of course the trouble with lithium batteries is the cobalt in them.

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Bear
 Posted: Jul 6 2018, 07:52 PM
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I did follow your link in regards to Tesla's recycling, they have come a way, but they still need to do a lot more when it comes to recycling old Lithium batteries.

Lee is correct in regards to Lithium batteries.

Lithium mining requires large amounts of water as the metal is extracted in evaporation pools, the amount of water used is affecting the environment in South American countries, the area is known as the 'Lithium Triangle'.

In regards to Nuclear power, here is a link to a FDNC thread you may like to visit Pool.


http://fairdinkumnewschat.com/index.php?showtopic=27060&hl=Nuclear&st=0

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF7n5tYtkFg&feature=youtu.be


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charka
 Posted: Jul 6 2018, 08:17 PM
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where do they get the power for the cars and who can afford them
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